We still need developer communities

Major League Hacking is a 500k+ global member community that hosts hackathons and open-source fellowships for the next generation of developers. They recently acquired DEV, an online community for 3M+ developers to learn and share together.

Connect with Mike on LinkedIn or email him at swift@mlh.io.

Congrats to Stellar Answer badge winner Antony Hatchkins for getting over a hundred saves on their answer to Git replacing LF with CRLF.

(Intro Music)

Ryan Donovan: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Stack Overflow podcast, a place to talk all things software and technology. I’m your host, Ryan Donovan, and today we’re talking with a fellow traveler in the community space, talking about the entry points for programmers in communities and what the future holds. My guest today is Mike Swift, who is the Co-founder and CEO of Major League Hacking. I guess now DEV-2, right?

Mike Swift: That’s right. I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for having me, Ryan.

Ryan Donovan: Yeah. Welcome to the show. So, before we get to chatting, we like to get to know our guests. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got into software and technology?

Mike Swift: Actually, I have a very non-traditional journey into tech. My parents were the kinds of people who believed in degrees with careers attached to ’em. So, doctor, lawyer, accountant, those were the choices. And when I went off to university, I had to work my way through school. And so, I went on the job board for the university, Rutgers, where I went, and I sorted the jobs by how much they paid, and applied for all the ones that paid the most, regardless of what the job was and whether I was qualified, which in hindsight, was a terrible idea. But I basically fell backwards into this coding job, and I didn’t know how to program at the time. I love technology, and I was really excited about building things, and I went in and I told them that. I was like, ‘hey, you’re probably better off hiring literally anybody with experience,’ but for whatever reason, this company took a chance on me. I was literally the only programmer on staff writing accounting software and PHP of all Things. I literally showed up on day one with a Sam’s Teach Yourself PHP in 21 Days book, and I figured I would be either gainfully employed, or at least I’d know how to program after three weeks, and I could take another shot at it. And the funny thing is, I really think I learned to code on Stack Overflow. The other day, I was opening up my profile, and I was looking back on that, but so much of what I was dealing with, I was literally scouring questions and answers, or asking my own. And I think that book did a lot for me to get me going, but Stack Overflow was really the thing that got me over the line. Anyway, I did that job for a couple years, never told anybody about it. Friend finds out I program eventually, and I’m literally getting ready to apply for law school, and he invites me to my first hackathon, and I’m like, ‘never heard of a hackathon before. That’s something elite programmers do, not a beginner who wants to be a lawyer.’ I literally showed up at this hackathon at NYUA, with 100 other students giving up their weekend to come back to campus, and come up with these crazy ideas for inventions, and websites, and robots, and all this, and show it off to this room full of complete strangers. And it was transformational. I think I learned more in that weekend than my entire degree up to that point. It was probably the first place I ever felt like I belonged in earnest, if I’m really being candid about it. The next day I went home. I looked myself in the mirror, I’m like, ‘what am I thinking, wanting to be a lawyer? I’ve gotta be a programmer.’ Switched computer science, and was shocked by how different those classes were from the hackathon. Solo sport technology’s 10 years outta date. Totally theoretical and unapplied, not real at all. And anyway, I took my education in my own hands. I did things like hackathons, and open source, and capstones, and eventually I worked my way up to a real internship, but all learning by doing. And I eventually went on to—we’ll get there, I’m sure—but start MLH as a way to help make sure anybody in the world didn’t have to go through that alone anymore.

Ryan Donovan: That makes sense that the hacking appealed to you, figuring it out in real time. Now you are CEO of Major League Hacking, just acquired DEV-2 as of this recording. As somebody who works for another developer community, what’s your take on the state of programming today of writing code and building software?

Mike Swift: I feel like I have a bit of an anti theory is the truth, and I’m very vocal about it, and I will be the first person to say it – to frame this a little bit, we have to understand how exactly the breadth and depth of MLH, and then we can talk about dev as a part of that. But MLH without Dev– so, before the acquisition, roughly one in three computer science graduates each year here in the United States, where headquarters goes through one of our programs on an annual basis. That’s just one of a hundred countries around the world where we have chapters of developers getting together to learn, build, and share. And that’s a huge swath of industry. I would estimate, up to this day, roughly 10% of all of the full-time software engineers employed in the United States are alumni of the MLH Network. So, not a trivial number of people, and truly the Crucible where they really were fired, and started their journeys in a lot of ways. So, I feel like we do have a finger on the pulse here in a way that, like a lot of people, really don’t. And my anti-theory is this: I think that today is the single greatest day in history to become a software creator. And I’m thinking–

Ryan Donovan: Wild take. Love it.

Mike Swift: Yeah. I’m sure we both do. I know. Yeah. I’m using the word software creator, not software engineer or developer specifically, because I think the world is changing, and I’ve observed this in real time. I went to a bachelor party for one of my buddies in college back in September, and I already described to you (how) I was not a technologist in school. None of my friends were; they’re lawyers and consultants. Of the roughly 15 guys I was with, more than half of them have already built internal tools for themselves at work or for their colleagues using AI. Now, this is hyper-disposable, hyper-personalized software. This is not the type of thing that you’re deploying to production to build a business around or whatever. This is, ‘ I have a problem,’ and in the same way that I have tools like reading and writing at my disposal, I now have code, and I have the ability to make things and solve real problems. Now, I think we’re going through an industry moment right now where things are changing a lot, and there is gonna be a lot of pain along the way/ but I think the true outcome is, even in its most aggressive estimate, there’s what, 40 million software engineers in the entire world today? There are literally a billion knowledge workers who are about to come online and have the ability to write code and solve problems. They’re gonna be hackers, right? They’re gonna be the people who MLH, and Dev, and frankly, Stack Overflow serve in a lot of ways, where they’re gonna need help onboarding and on ramping into this industry, and they’re gonna need a place to learn: what are the tools? How do I actually use them? How do I build the confidence and track record to do it? And then, especially in this world where, God, between social media and AI, we’re just inundated with digital assets and digital communication, person-to-person, real human connection is gonna be the driver of so much stuff in life. And so, communities of practice guilds in a lot of ways are really the future. And yeah, have a lot more we can add there. But yeah, I think generally the TL DR headline is if I had the choice to go back in history and start my career again in 2012 when I graduated, or today, there is literally no question I would pick today. I think there’s so much more opportunity. There’s so much more to do. It requires a different type of thinking. We are literally re-skilling our entire global economy in real time, and that is one of the most exciting opportunities of my lifetime, probably of human history.

Ryan Donovan: I love the take of super optimism. As I see some of the younger folks, some of my contemporaries who’ve gotten laid off, who are abandoning IT because there’s a whole lot of shedding and reconsidering going on right now – for somebody who’s looking for their foot in the door, what’s the new process from your perspective?

Mike Swift: There is a lot of short-term pain right now, and I don’t think it’s gonna go away anytime soon is the unfortunate thing. I think we’re riding out the tail end of one of the great market corrections of the technology industry. If you look at what happened between 2022 and today, really, there frankly was a lot of overhiring that happened during COVID. There’s was a lot of exuberance in tech that, frankly, we didn’t have the growth to back up, and the market corrected, and a lot of really talented people ended up on the job market. At the same time, we have this radical catalyst for change—AI that comes onto the scene—and that also brings uncertainty into the market. You add in all the other macroeconomic factors around the world, and you’re like, ‘oh my gosh.’ This is just a scary time to be a human, and to be candid about it, I know lots of people outside of tech that are struggling in the same way, so we’re not alone in that journey. Now, the advice, though, about getting started right now, what would I say? The first thing I’d say is you have to lean into the AI stuff regardless of how you feel about it, and come up with a story for what it means to you. Whether you’re optimistic or pessimistic, the technology is here. If you just opt out entirely, you are knee-capping yourself for no reason. You can be pessimistic about it and still understand how to use the tool and talk about that in the context of your career, but you have to be building in public. You have to be talking about it as a skillset that you’re developing, and you have to be demonstrating how you can use this new technology to solve real problems, or what the pitfalls are, and to why you wouldn’t use it to solve those problems. The second thing I would say, just in brief, is it’s a numbers game. It’s always been a numbers game. It’s not gonna change. And you just need to keep your head down and keep applying. And there’s so many great people out there who, frankly, are struggling and unemployed, or underemployed, and as I just described, it’s a tough environment out there, and you really have to have an irrational amount of faith in yourself and your ability to find a job and be successful. Some of the people I love and care about most in life, who I believe are some of the most talented people I know, struggle with the same issue. I’m lucky where I’m employed. MLH employs me in my own company, but if I was out in the market, I could imagine I could be struggling the same way. So anyway, we’re all in it together, I think is what I’m saying there, and that if you can’t lose faith just because it’s tough right now. Everybody’s struggling.

Ryan Donovan: And I think there’s a value to understanding how software works on a fundamental level beyond just writing the code. I think there’s a couple things. Somebody said, you have to decide whether as a developer, you enjoyed writing code or building software, and I think a lot of people enjoyed writing code. The other sort of disconnect I’ve seen is from talking to people who don’t use software or AI at the level people in tech do, is that they want to use an LLM for everything, and what you want is a script in the database. So how do we bridge these knowledge gaps here, get people towards a builder mindset, whether that is the layman or the developer?

Mike Swift: That’s a great question. So first of all, I think that there’s a paradigm shift that everybody has to understand, and I think that’s probably the most fundamental starting point. It’s that when we have entered the job market, almost every single person has started as an individual contributor. Our job was to do the work. We needed to go acquire the domain knowledge that was necessary for us to come in and literally accomplish the goal. A select few of us would graduate becoming managers. Today, that’s completely inverted. Every single person is starting their career as a manager. The difference is, rather than managing people, or managing machines. Now, most people in all history had the luxury of learning to do the work first, and then learning how to be a manager second, a slower on-ramp. Today, nobody has that. We literally just pushed you into the deep end. You gotta learn how to swim. And so, thinking about what are the skills that a manager would have who is working with an individual contributor to solve a problem? That’s the first kind of mental shift that we need to make as a group, is that we need to recognize that where the value is created is in the ideas, the communication, taste, it’s knowing what to build, why to build, and how to get the LLM or your team—we could be also be humans—to build it, right? So, that is, first of all, a product mindset. That’s not the coder mindset, as you called out. There is a big difference between building software and writing code. The other paradigm shift that I like to think about, and my buddy Greg at Google gets the credit for this one, but he said that where we are in the world right now is effectively the birth of power tools. Before power tools existed, woodworking was a craft. Every little detail was art. And that still exists today. There are plenty of artisans out there who, you know, love woodworking and they use the hand tools, and it’s about the experience of building and the craftsmanship.

Ryan Donovan: But that’s not how most tables are made.

Mike Swift: Exactly. The benefit of power tools is that we all have this amazing furniture at all times in our houses and get to benefit from it because we have optimized the tool flow to solve the problem, to build the product, to solve whatever the end user needs. And so, that’s another mindset shift here is: are you a craftsman or are you a builder? And those are different, and it’s okay to be one or the other, and you shouldn’t feel shame or pressure, but you should know who you are and what you enjoy.

Ryan Donovan: You touched on something interesting, ’cause there’s something I’ve heard that’s almost cliche that developers go, ‘I quit being a developer to be a carpenter.’ Go build furniture. And it’s like, yeah, you’re an artisan. You wanna be an artisan, you want to handcraft all this stuff and create something beautiful. But that is not how business works in most cases.

Mike Swift: Photography’s another great example of this, and again, Greg continues to get credit for all these analogies, but before iPhones, before these high-quality mobile phones we have in our pockets, literally being a photographer was a true hobby. You had specialized equipment; you needed to know how to develop film. Digital comes around, even when you’re doing digital, you still need specialized equipment in some way. You have a dedicated camera. Today, I literally, on an average day, probably snap 10 pictures. Do I call myself a photographer? No, I don’t. But am I using the skillset and this general thing that literally was a craft in an industry? Yes. I guess if I got paid to take photos from somebody, I might call myself a photographer the same way that all my buddies who I went on that trip with who wrote software for themselves, if somebody paid them, maybe they would call themselves developers. But that’s the other big paradigm shift here that’s really important is: identity, which historically, being a developer was an identity because you had to know the craft to do it – that’s not necessarily true anymore. And that’s why I like that language ‘creator’ is, because it’s a bit less about who you are, and it’s more about what you do in some way.

Ryan Donovan: That shift from identity to activity is an interesting one, and I think it relates to the next part of what I wanna talk about: the communities. Because (when) people join communities like MLH, Dev, or Stack Overflow, it’s because of a shared identity. And I want to get your take on how we get to preserve those human communities in a space where everybody just does this activity, and is launching programs willy-nilly.

Mike Swift: There’s two things we have going for it. One, I think everybody feels overstimulated by digital content right now. It doesn’t matter who you are and whether you’re a hacker, or you’re a young kid who on social media, or my parents, I’m sure are inundated by this too – everybody wants the antidote to that, and I do think the antidote to that is person-to-person communication. It could be online, certainly possible, but authentic human connection and communication. And then, the second thing we have going for us is empathy. And I think everybody can relate to this universal experience of the feeling of being overwhelmed, and feeling like there’s a lot of slop in the universe right now, and that we haven’t found the right balance. And that level of empathy, I think even drives further the value of those person-to-person connections. And so, what I would say is if somebody was asking me, figuring out how to navigate the changing landscape of what’s out there, I’d say two things: one, events are not community, and that might be a hot take coming from somebody like the CEO of Major League Hacking, which is primarily an event-driven community. Events are a catalyst for bringing community together. Going to an event one time and then leaving and not being a part of it is not joining the community. You’re a spectator effectively. Showing up, and contributing, and coming back again and again, and being a part of something bigger, that’s community, and that’s belonging. And so, when you’re looking at what to do and where to spend your time, don’t focus on what the event is. Focus on who the people are and the connections you had while you were there. And then, the second thing I’d say is everything’s changing in real time. You gotta be exploring. The same way the technology changes by the minute, the communities change by the minute, and where the place you ultimately end up that you belong, maybe it doesn’t exist today. You may have to start it, or you may have to go find it, but it will exist, and you just have to do the work to get there.

Ryan Donovan: With communities, there’s a sort of benefit to the shared knowledge, right? I had one guest on that wrote a book about shared knowledge and shared wisdom, and mentioned that the scientific revolution was really spurred on by letter writing. And it was this ad hoc sort of communication that eventually became a community, and these societies, and journals, and all these things.

Mike Swift: I think a lot of what’s happening on X or Twitter right now is very similar, and you think about AI and how much of it happens in public on that platform. It started out pretty casual, people talking about their building, and today I think it’s become actually a community of science and practice, right? It’s what we are actually building and how we talked about it. All that. So yeah, that resonates.

Ryan Donovan: And bots, too.

Mike Swift: And a lot of bots. The robots need a place to talk to each other.

Ryan Donovan: I think Meta just bought that one, right?

Mike Swift: I think so, too.

Ryan Donovan: The discovery of existing communities or building new communities is gonna be the sort of one of the big problems for us, because when you use these tools, a lot of ’em are trying to be the one and only entry point. Do you have ideas on how to break that sort of stranglehold on the single-entry point?

Mike Swift: I actually think that the MLH community is a great paradigm for this, and I intend to basically replicate it through MLH and Dev, and a bunch of other things at scale. One of MLH’s great strengths and great weaknesses is that it’s effectively a house of brands. And what I mean by that is when you go to an MLH Hackathon on campus at Rutgers, let’s say, it’s not called MLH Rutgers, it’s actually called HackRU. It retains the identity of the school or the local community that it serves. It is MLH-affiliated and sanctioned. It’s part of our calendar, they’re a part of our community, they organize official chapters, but they retain their own identity and brand within it. So, even though MLH is touching 10% of all software engineers in the United States, or a third of computer science graduates. It’s not one massive community. It does have that effect. There certainly are ways to leverage that, but most people, the average person’s experiences with their local MLH chapter as the social fabric, and there’s a bunch of science that says that smaller communities are where humans cap out of what, like 300 relationships or something like that in a network. And so, even further, right? So, anyway, you need these smaller communities. So, that’s one thing. And I think that figuring out what the federated story of your larger ecosystem is and how somebody could have a more intimate, personalized community experience is one thing. And I think the other thing I’d say, too, is that communities do not have defined edges, usually. They bleed a lot. It’s actually much more liquid than it is solid. And where those places of overlap are is often where a lot of magic happens. There’s somebody who happens to be in the hacker club and also the DevOps or app-building club, or whatever it is, and they spend time together, and something new happens. And you should basically feel there’s some kind of current pulling the liquids in of the communities in different directions. So, you just gotta go with the flow sometimes and see where it takes you, and you might end up discovering other communities through those bleeding edges of the communities you’re already a part of.

Ryan Donovan: I’ve heard a couple stories from music that actually applied to that. For the band The Roots, they started this Philadelphia movement, and they did it very intentionally by being like, who are our friends? Who are the people that are doing what we’re doing, and how can we do more things with them? So, I think that’s the step to figure out who’s doing what we’re doing.

Mike Swift: That’s right. Find your tribe. And it doesn’t have to be a huge thing, right? I think a lot of people gravitate, especially in this day and age, where differentiation is so key. You gravitate towards a big logo, and I get it, I really do. But community is about connection of individuals, right? Find your tribe, find your people, and then go from there.

Ryan Donovan: With the sort of expansion of what the developer, the software builder tribe and identity is, do you see this being a sort of great, big, massive folks, or do you think we’re gonna experience a fracturing?

Mike Swift: I think we’re a good experience of fracturing, almost certainly, which is fine. I actually think that’s better, right? Yes. Don’t get me wrong. We need to have connective tissue at the top. I get it. That’s what MLH represents is the connective tissue at the top, but that is not going to be the average person’s experience. And in fact, it looks a lot like government, right? If you actually look at the people’s best ability to impact their day-to-day lives, it’s in local government, not national politics in the United States. And so, figuring out what the equivalent of that is for you and getting involved in that is likely where people are gonna find the most value. That is a fracturing on some level because you’re effectively siloing out people’s experiences. But I think that’s just the natural way that communities can and should evolve.

Ryan Donovan: As the community gets bigger, you wanna talk about the specific experiences you’re having, right? The specific problems.

Mike Swift: It loses value if it becomes too disconnected from your reality.

Ryan Donovan: We talked about communities a bit, but we haven’t really talked about the sort of specific reasoning behind the DEV-2 purchase. Because when I first heard that, I was like, that’s a really interesting get. What was the thinking behind picking that up as a part of your entourage?

Mike Swift: So, the first thing I wanna say is that my Co-founder, John and I have known the Dev founders, Peter, Ben, and Jess for, I wanna say about seven years. We have this amazing photo of us back when they started Dev all out to Dim Sum. And then, after the acquisition was closing, we got another photo of all of us together, now in 2025-2026. And it’s very rare to find people who have built community-first businesses for developers or technologists at scale the way they have. So, first of all, there’s just a lot of existing respect between the organizations in terms of what we stand for and do. Now, the strategy though, which I think is where it gets interesting, is if MLH is the lab where we have this superpower ability to mobilize people to get together and actually get hands dirty and build stuff, Dev is the library. It’s where you catalog all that knowledge and you share it with the world. I think one of MLH’s great weaknesses was that we didn’t have a digital home for all of our community members to go and talk about the collective experiences that they were having of their journey into software creation, launching their careers, establishing their careers, winning in the long term. All of that stuff was happening, but it was fragmented. And when I thought about the natural complement for that, I thought that a platform like Dev was perfect, right? It’s like you created a natural flywheel between what people are doing. They’re spending six hours on average working with the technology at a hackathon, learning so much, and then it’s over. We gotta wait for the next hackathon. Maybe they add it to GitHub. And people wanna share that. They really do. I know that because literally you talk to our community members and every person wants to do that, we gotta make it easier for them. And the connective tissue between Dev and that experience I think, is what we really need to focus on at first. But the flywheel works both ways. Literally, I read a story on Dev not two weeks ago from somebody who read about the acquisition, and had never heard of MLH, found a local hackathon that weekend, went to it, had a transformational experience, and then wrote about it on Dev, and it was actually an amazing flywheel of experience. And I love that. Yeah. The only other thing I would add that I think is really relevant and interesting here is that most of my career, like if I was talking about the way that software is adopted and used, I’d say that I basically came online during what I would call phase two of that, which is product-led growth. So, phase one is executives selling software on golf courses. You’re my buddy. We go golfing. You buy my software, and then all your developers have to use it. We figured out that was a bad idea for a lot of reasons as a society. And then, companies like GitHub and Twilio came along and they basically rode this product-led growth wave, and they figured out that the best way to drive adoption in a product-led growth strategy is to get developers to actually use your stuff, and become advocates and champions for it. The CIO, or the CTO, VP, are just still signing the check, but the people who use the software are the ones that are actually driving the impetus to buy.

Ryan Donovan: It’s a kind of a use first and then pay later sort of strategy, right?

Mike Swift: That’s exactly right. Now, I think things are gonna change again. I don’t think anybody can truly articulate what’s gonna happen yet, but the two trends I would point to are number one, for the last, I wanna say 13 quarters in a row at MLH when we do our census, which is akin to the Stack Overflow developer survey, we’ve seen that YouTube is the number one channel that developers use to learn new technical skills. Over the last two quarters, LLMs have skyrocketed past that as the number one tool. So, that’s one thing I’d call out. And I think the second thing I’d call out is that when code is effective, the cost of building something is zero, and the idea, and the execution of that idea is where the value is, the selection of the tools changes a lot, right? Because in our report about craftsmanship, we’re no longer being like, ‘which hammer specifically solves this problem?’ It’s, ‘which power tool do I have at my disposal that’s gonna help me do the thing that the hammer was doing before?’

Ryan Donovan: I think it’s an interesting change to the build versus buy calculus, too.

Mike Swift: Oh, very much.

Ryan Donovan: It’s so much easier to build just a random tool. And I’ve heard of people talking about the new reasons to buy a software is either the data or the infrastructure. Are there other reasons that you’ve seen that people are talking about?

Mike Swift: I think that we’re still in a time right now where the cost is not zero from time. So, I actually think that’s still calculus, here. It’s like the tools are good for generating competitive software, but they’re not perfect. And I think we have not, as a society, figured out the collective true extension of this compete strategy, so to speak. So, I think it’ll change a lot. But my guess is that the way things are gonna change is that we’re gonna get way more focused on specs and verification, and that we’re gonna give the LLMs a lot of leeway to be able to solve those problems. But if you can imagine you’re picking software, you’re like, ‘am I gonna integrate, acquire it, or am I gonna build a competitor?’ And literally, you’d be like, okay, I have the open spec of what this thing does, and all I have to do is evaluate the relative costs of those things. And that might sound crazy, but I’m watching this in real time. I’ll give you exact example. At MLH, we’re big fans of this software, Granola, for internal meeting note-taking. It’s effectively just a note taker that seamlessly integrates into your audio from your computer, so you don’t have these bots or whatever joining. So, we like that tool. Anyway, one of our employees, Ryan, uses Linux as his daily driver operating system. Granola isn’t on Linux, so he literally vibe-coded his own and is using that internally as his note-taking system. And it was like a real-time example of that. He basically speced out against this existing system we were all using, and then literally just rolled his own overnight. And that calculus is just such a new muscle for all of us.

Ryan Donovan: It’s definitely interesting times, and it’s gonna put a lot of people on their heels. I think it was a year ago at the Human X Conference, I talked to the Crunchbase CEO, and they put out a report that was like 35% of the companies at this conference are acquisition targets.

Mike Swift: I think that’s probably true.

Ryan Donovan: That’s crazy to me. Just moving so fast. Yeah.

Mike Swift: There’s gonna be a massive consolidation of the industry. Also, it’s just (that) this is so different than any wave we’ve ridden before, because the internet was adopted really rapidly. If you look at the history from the early 90s through, let’s call it the mid 2010s, in terms of the penetration of internet access globally for humans. But the adoption of AI is just on an accelerating curve that’s unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. And again, it’s so scary because for all of human history, technology has been adopted from the top down. Government, big business, middle-sized businesses, and eventually trickles down to consumers. We all suddenly have internet and phones in our pockets. AI is the first thing that’s really inverted, where consumers are adopting it faster than businesses are, and our institutions. And God, talk about government and education, that’s gonna be a laggard as truest sense of it in order (to adopt) these things. But all that’s to say that it’s just a really weird new world, and all of us are navigating it together, and probably again, the best thing we can all do is share these stories, right? And this comes back to the dev stuff. We’re all learning together and it changes so fast that you just have to be always learning, and sharing, and absorbing all the lessons everybody else around you is doing. And so, I think that’s the best thing we can all be doing is navigating this journey together in public, and I think that’s what Dev and MLH, frankly, are building is the public place to build and learn. The last thing I just wanted to say was how grateful I am coming on here. I think it’s been a privilege to lead a community like MLH for coming up on 13 years in July, and literally, this stuff changed my life. I wouldn’t be here today without places like those early hackathons I went to, without Stack Overflow, frankly. Dev didn’t exist when I was getting started, but that type of community is exactly where I wanted to be, or I should have been if it had existed back then. The work we’re all doing is just so powerful, and I think that I’m grateful for all of the people behind the scenes who are making all these organizations come together and figuring out how to support, frankly, one of the biggest transformations of our time. So, I appreciate the opportunity to be here, and I really appreciate all the good work that everybody’s doing.

Ryan Donovan: It is that time of the show again, folks, where we shout out somebody who came on to Stack Overflow, dropped some knowledge, shared some curiosity, and earned themselves a badge. So, today we’re shouting out this winner of a Stellar Answer Badge – somebody who dropped an answer that was so good, 100 people saved it. So, congrats to Antony Hatchkins for answering, ‘Git replacing LF with CRLF.’ If you’re curious about that, we’ll have the answer for you in the show notes. I’m Ryan Donovan. I edit the blog, host the podcast here at Stack Overflow. If you have questions, concerns, comments, topics to cover, et cetera, et cetera, email me at podcast@stackoverflow.com, and if you wanna reach out to me directly, you can find me on LinkedIn.

Mike Swift: I’m Mike Swift. I’m the CEO and Co-founder of Major League Hacking, or MLH, and we’ve recently acquired Dev, dev.to, if you’re curious about that, on the internet. I could be found at email@swiftatmlh.io, and similarly on LinkedIn. Would love to connect with anybody in our community and help any way I can.

Ryan Donovan: All right. Thank you for listening, everyone, and we’ll talk to you next time.